Curse

pumpkin pie · Dec 17, 2008, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Funny how you only hear about these rare stories in the media and never the good things, go go biased media!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diddy bow

What kind of good things? O_o

Quote:

Originally Posted by EroChrono

Care to give some examples?

This is good things/news to me:

excerpt:
(CNN) -- A rat believed to be extinct for 11 million years, a spider with a foot-long legspan, and a hot pink cyanide-producing "dragon millipede" are among the thousand newly discovered species in the largely unexplored Mekong Delta region.

would you look at that hot pink cyanide producing dragon millipede.

zwei2stein · Dec 17, 2008, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Funny how you only hear about these rare stories in the media and never the good things, go go biased media!

Real men use statistics, not anecdotes:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...lts-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ies-per-capita

You know, USA is pretty high there if you take into accounts that high gun availability should help to keep crime down because would-be offenders should be scared of being shot by law-abiding citizens while committing crime.

Edit: It actually takes guts to draw gun while facing criminal, especially if he is the one who is already holding it. It's not like he will wait for you to aim shoot him. And you do NOT want to risk him pushing trigger on reflex when you surprise him. Escalating, i.e., bank robbery to gunfight is not really gonna hep with saving lives, now would it.

Zahr Dalsk · Dec 18, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Gun enthusiasts tend to be exactly the last people who should have access to them...

Steehl · Dec 18, 2008, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Let's perform a comparison...

(List A) Total # of Murders by Country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders

(List B) Total # of Murders With Firearms by Country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

#1 on List A is India with 37,170 Murders. A cross reference with List B shows that India ISN'T EVEN ON THE LIST.

#2 on List A is Russia with 28,904 Murders. A cross reference with List B shows that Russia ISN'T EVEN ON THE LIST.

#3 on List A is Columbia with 26,539 Murders. A cross reference with List B shows that Columbia had 21,898 Murders with Firearms.

Eventually you get to the U.S on List A with 16,204 Murders List B showing 9,369 Murders with Firearms.

I have to believe these "statistics" are far from scientifically accurate, but they do show that the common argument of "no guns = no murders" is crap.

zwei2stein · Dec 18, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steehl

Let's perform a comparison...

(List A) Total # of Murders by Country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders

(List B) Total # of Murders With Firearms by Country:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...-with-firearms

#1 on List A is India with 37,170 Murders. A cross reference with List B shows that India ISN'T EVEN ON THE LIST.

#2 on List A is Russia with 28,904 Murders. A cross reference with List B shows that Russia ISN'T EVEN ON THE LIST.

#3 on List A is Columbia with 26,539 Murders. A cross reference with List B shows that Columbia had 21,898 Murders with Firearms.

Eventually you get to the U.S on List A with 16,204 Murders List B showing 9,369 Murders with Firearms.

I have to believe these "statistics" are far from scientifically accurate, but they do show that the common argument of "no guns = no murders" is crap.

Now click on per-capita button please.

comparing absolute numbers when talking about rate of crime is silly.

LagginTimes · Dec 18, 2008, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Gun enthusiasts tend to be exactly the last people who should have access to them...

I'm a gun enthusiast and I own several firearms. Most are for plinking at the range and some as viable home defense weapons. I'm also adamant about gun safety. Why should I not have access to firearms?

Etta · Dec 18, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Nobody want the King of England to come into their home and tellin' them what to do, right? Also you have them just incase when the goverment gently caress up the country so bad that civilians have to take them down.

I remember when the gun slingers broke into the whitehouse and tried to take Bush down. Man, that was some epic fire fight.

Zahr Dalsk · Dec 18, 2008, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

Nobody want the King of England to come into their home and tellin' them what to do, right? Also you have them just incase when the goverment gently caress up the country so bad that civilians have to take them down.

Guess what? It hasn't worked. Bush stayed as president. Soldiers stayed in Iraq. Obviously the idea of protection from the government is a complete joke.

Etta · Dec 18, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Yeah, I know. It was a joke on the constitution, the right to "bear arms" y'know.
seewatididdar?

Steehl · Dec 18, 2008, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Now click on per-capita button please.

comparing absolute numbers when talking about rate of crime is silly.

I was expecting someone to try that argument. I certainly hope you investigated those links yourself before I made this reply.

(List A) Murders (Per Capita)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ers-per-capita

(List B) Murders with Firearms (Per Capita)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita

So we get Columbia and South Africa at #1 and #2 respectively on both lists...but what's this?

Jamaica at #3 on List A and NOWHERE TO BE FOUND on List B.

Venezuela at #4 on List A and NOWHERE TO BE FOUND on List B.

Russia at #5 on List A and, you guessed it, STILL not on List B.

The U.S. is #24 on List A, and #8 on List B.

My point still remains valid. The argument of "no guns = no murders" is crap.

zwei2stein · Dec 18, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

If you knew it will be brought up, you should have used it in your first reply instead of pulling irrelevant numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steehl

My point still remains valid. The argument of "no guns = no murders" is crap.

And argument guns = no murders is crap too.

It is all about quality of law enforcement and about public order factor. Just check top and bottom of lists. Top ones are basically lawless. Bottom ones are either civilized or ran very tightly. (Notice Muslim countries. Revenge being part of justice system works as no sane person would attempt murder if he knew that his family will pay dearly.)

All in all both gun control and anti-gun control are about feeling safe, and either "think about kids please" or "i am not gonna get rid of my gun". It is dumb idea to change it one way or another, because if gun control is put into action people who should not have guns will not turn them in and if gun control that previously existed is abolished, well, lets just say that you need critical mass of gun owners to make it work and it takes time.

Steehl · Dec 18, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

You didn't even read my point did you?

There are people, some of which have posted in this thread, who believe the "no guns = no murders" stance. Per Capita or Bare Numbers statistics of murders vs. murders with firearms BOTH HAVE VALIDITY in proving that statement wrong.

You tried to make it sound as though the comparison would drastically change when done Per Capita...It didn't. At least 3 of the top 5 locales, in both comparisons, have a high rate of murders without a single one being attributed to firearms.

pumpkin pie · Dec 19, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Actually one cannot compare different countries in these case.

Different countries has different buying powers, needs, security, corruption status, education, job security, etc, given if colombia and south africa, highest rate of murders country has the same buying powers/economic level as that of the Americans, could it be, then the murder rate would be higher? or maybe the effect would be reverse.

zwei2stein · Dec 19, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steehl

You didn't even read my point did you?

There are people, some of which have posted in this thread, who believe the "no guns = no murders" stance. Per Capita or Bare Numbers statistics of murders vs. murders with firearms BOTH HAVE VALIDITY in proving that statement wrong.

You tried to make it sound as though the comparison would drastically change when done Per Capita...It didn't. At least 3 of the top 5 locales, in both comparisons, have a high rate of murders without a single one being attributed to firearms.

Absolute numbers don't have validity unless size of same is exactly same. I'll be simple and blunt here here:

Total amount of murders has more to do with size of country than anything else. That's why India tops one list while in fact being much safer than that would suggest.

Overpopulated countries top both lists for reasons that Pumpkin touched.

And insisting on per capita statistics is not necessarily meant to strengthen or weaken any argument, but to provide more solid fact basis for discussion.

the savage nornbear · Dec 20, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

I will one day have a neon pink cyanide oozing dragon centipede as a pet. I stake my life on it, as well as the life of my firstborn.